S1E06 : “Lifelong Learning and Agility – A Key to Success”, with Stefan Holzer, VP International at AliveCor

In this episode of The Marketing Consultation, we are joined by Stefan Holzer, a passionate medical device, patient and customer focused leader currently serving at AliveCor, and bringing a wealth of experience from his 16-year tenure at Medtronic and his 25-year experience in MedTech.

 Stefan emphasizes the importance of brain agility in his current role at AliveCor, highlighting the significance of curiosity and continuous learning, and sharing his personal strategies for maintaining focus and motivation.

 In his current position at AliveCor, Stefan is deeply involved in understanding customer needs. He emphasizes the importance of direct customer engagement and how it informs their product development process. He shares how his team maintains a close ear on customer needs, which is critical in shaping AliveCor's products and services.

 Stefan also discusses the impact of leadership on professional growth, underscoring the value of learning from both exceptional and less-than-ideal bosses. He advocates for the acceptance of lateral career moves or even a step down, depending on personal circumstances.

 This episode offers valuable insights from Stefan's extensive professional journey, particularly his current role at AliveCor. It is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the intricacies of team building, brain agility, and customer-centric product development in a fast-paced, technology-driven environment.

 Please do not hesitate to share your feedback with us on our LinkedIn or Instagram pages and to give us a rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify. This is very important to help us grow The Marketing Consultation community!

Transcript

0:04

Hi everyone and welcome to the Marketing Consultation, the podcast for Healthcare Marketers by Healthcare Marketers. In the Marketing Consultation, Greg and I are having biweekly conversations with top leaders from the healthcare industry to uncover the key experience, insights and advice when it comes to carry on development, leadership and building high performing teams. Or marketing strategy and innovation. Whether you work in healthcare marketing or are interested in this field, our goal is to help answer your key questions and challenges and support you in your professional growth so that you can accelerate your career and stay ahead of the curve. Hello, Stephan. This is our pleasure to welcome you on the marketing consultation today. Yeah. Good morning. Pleasure to be with you. So, Stephan, both Greg and I know you from our respective time at Medtronic where we worked in some of the same business units. In your last role at Medtronic, you were leading a region for the CRHF units, which is the cardiac rhythm and heart failure business of Medtronic, which is overall a fairly major market. And after that experience, you left Medtronic and you joined a live core, which at the time was a startup. So can you please start by maybe saying a few words about a life core, the activity of the company? And then describe your experience transitioning from a big make the company to what was at the time a startup. What were some of the challenges that you face and how did you overcome them? Yeah, AliveCor. Is indeed still a startup. Was founded 2011 by a gentleman called Doctor David Albert. In 2007 the iPhones came up and he had this idea that he could transfer an iPhone into an ECG machine. So he built together with two Australians prototype and recorded a YouTube video. And placed that YouTube video on, yeah, out there in the wild and that created lots of clicks. So the guys thought this might be a business. So let's fund the company and this is what we're doing since. So we're doing personal Ecgs and services around this and with the aim to transfer cardiology on the long run. So we launched 6 lead device in 2019. We have additional services launched next to this. There is different business models on consumer side and on the professional side, we're selling lots of these devices actually on Amazon to to the general public and we are also selling to to professionals. So it's a very interesting business because it's kind of very. Different segments and different spaces with different marketing efforts. Thanks, Stefan. That's very interesting and a little bit different maybe from what we've been doing before where we were in a very B to B environment. So could you describe your experience and your transition from Medtronic to A life core, How did it go? What were the challenges, the main difference that you saw? Yeah. So in Medtronic it was a big operation that I that I had it right. I mean cardio Rhythm, heart failure at that time were around I guess 100 people in the in the region that I was responsible for. So very much kind of top level management approach that you have to that you have to bring and then suddenly I joined Lifecore at that time I can't remember I think 50 or 55 people globally. And the European team was one guy in the UK and myself. So suddenly you're in an organization that is basically nonexisting in Europe and you have to do everything yourself. And yeah, there is, there's just no infrastructure, right. So you have to roll up the sleeves and you're basically suddenly the sales Rep and the manager and the marketeer and the And somehow supporting regulatory and logistics and everything. It's good because you had touched on these different functions before in your experience. So yeah, you had a little bit of the flavor of all of that. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I did lots of things in Medtronic from clinical to business management and marketing and everything. So that certainly helped. Now the biggest change for me when I joined from Medtronic was actually when you're working in a company like Medtronic and you folks know this right, Medtronic is a very complex structure kind of metrics organization that is multidimensional with businesses and super businesses and regions and countries and so if you're in one of these middle management positions. As a business head, then, you're an alignment machine. At the end of the day, you have to align with everyone all the time, because you have to bring everybody in the same page to get stuff moving right. And now suddenly I was sitting here in Europe and I tried to align with my youth colleagues and it was just tough that we're not kind of the IT took me actually weeks to figure out that they just didn't want to align stuff. They just want me to do stuff right. So there's total freedom of doing things and deciding stuff and just moving forward was a total game changer. Also in a total different speed in all honesty, right? I mean there is yeah, there were times when COVID hit a live code was coming up with a solution for. Qt measurement in the US that took them I think 3 weeks to develop this right? Totally impossible in Medtronic to do things like this, right? Because until you have spoken to everyone, kind of three months are gone, right? So thanks Stefan for sharing and there is something which is interesting what you mentioned regarding about the change from the big corporate machine and the alignment and to everybody running in the same direction to have the maximum impact. And here you share also about that. It's a kind of one man show when you started in Europe. And I'm really curious also building when you mentioned about working with different segments of customer because working with healthcare professional. You have been doing that for all your life and suddenly you're starting also other segments like direct to consumer like Amazon. And how do you build a vision and how you define a strategy with such a diverse audience, diverse target? Well, I mean, I had to learn very fast actually, because I had no idea about consumer marketing and how this whole channel game works, right, How? Electronic devices are sold in consumer space, right. So I mean it's all about getting the right team together I believe, right. We have a very great marketing organization here in the life core and especially in the US At the time when I started there were great people on the consumer marketing side that I could really learn a lot from how that. Business runs on the consumer side, right? So we are promoting product in the US and also in the UK and some other markets with TV commercials, for instance. From a strategy point of view, I mean on the consumer side, it's a marketing game, that's clear, right? On the professional side, we're still adapting a lot to the business model. And testing different things, if I look back over the last four years, we did lots of different things as a company to come up with business models that are solid. And so there is still a lot of innovation in the business model, right. So to whom sell which product to whom for which price is, it's not an established. Business per se, like it was a Medtronic right, where you knew I'm going to sell a pacemaker. The therapy is clearly defined. The pricing is clearly defined. The reimbursement is clearly defined. The difference here is that you have technical innovation that you put into hands of professionals and they suddenly will figure out what to do with this, right. So we've seen lots of. Feedback from customers actually. That brought new business ideas up. One example in that, for instance was during COVID. People were using these devices suddenly to measure QT changes in patients that were tested for hydroxychloroquine. So I Hydroxychloroquine was a big story suddenly because Donald Trump was touting the drug, right. And so lots of clinicians started to do clinical trials to really understand the benefits of hydroxychloroquine. Now hydroxy is changing QT time, so you need to monitor patients for these changes on their ECG. Now if you have a highly infectious patient. You need to fully dress up, take a 12 lead machine, drive into the room of the patient, measure the ECG, take the ECG back out, right, and then clean everything. That's in fact the whole machine right. Now if you take a small 6 lead ECG of a life core, which is kind of a size of a lighter basically or a piece of gum, right? You can leave this with the patient in the room. You do the measurement through the window of the room with Bluetooth right onto a tablet. And when you're done after a week or so with the patient, you just take the device back and you wipe it off. So total different way of doing things by innovation. We would never have thought about this. This was something that customers came up right. So Stefan, so you discussed about some of your products, so we would be really interested in your view, what are some of the key factors that contribute to a successful product launch in our industry if you had maybe to tell us like the free key factors? Well, I mean at the end it's like with everything, right, have a solid plan, plan and plan and. Yeah, I mean the, I think the important thing here in Medtech is your product. Well, how to say it, I mean to say it in a formula, it's pain plus gain divided by money and effort, right. So if your product is basically having a solid benefit. And is removing pain of customers and the price is right and there is some reimbursement or it reduces effort then you're going to have then you have a story right. So data is key I think nowadays if you launch a clinical. If you're launching a medical device, I mean, I think back when I started, we launched devices basically without any clinical data. There was very little clinical data, right? Impossible. Nowadays I think if you want to make a successful launch, you need to have your benefits evaluated. You need to have health technology assessments done. Usually you need to understand the reimbursement landscape. So you need to understand this whole story of money flow and the benefits for all stakeholders. And then the big question is how to communicate that product into the market during your launch, right? I think it got far more complicated in how to approach medical professionals especially. I mean, in the good old days, we were going to Congresses that didn't. That stopped during COVID. We tested lots of things on online conferences and stuff did not really work that well. Now we're going back to Congresses, but there is not that big interaction at the Congresses anymore. So lots of people are doing this hybrid thing nowadays, not going to all the Congresses and joining some just online. So we'll need to see how to communicate, right. I think this is gonna be one of the biggest questions for marketeers going forward, how to reach physicians effectively, right. I think you're touching a few key points, which is really about the change in landscape. The unpredictability also the way to reach the customer and like you mentioned and last but not least also the data part which is very critical. I would like to switch to another topics and we had the opportunity to discuss during your preparation code which is about the team and you have been building team in your time in Metronic, big team, white team distributed. Across multiple countries accusing a lot also about efficiency, scalability. And here what's quite interesting is that you've been building team in a completely different environment, different scale but also different needs. And then I'm really curious about when you move to AliveCor or you've been building your team and more specifically what type of quality, what type of skills, what type of attitude you have been looking for your team in the startup environment? And if you can elaborate a little bit also versus or you are building the team in a corporate environment. Yeah, I mean it's complicated because we need very specific or very broad knowledge actually because it's as I said, I mean it's medical device, it's consumer business, it's professional business, it's hardware, it's IT, it's integration, it's services. So it's a very, very broad thing. So it's difficult to find people I believe that know it all right because it's so broad and I think it's just not possible. So there is lots of learning on the job. So what I'm actually tried to do here is that we hire mainly for brains and agility. So do you bring the. The brains to learn it, and the will, of course to learn it. And are you agile enough to adapt from what you have done before to these other things that you need to learn, right? So for instance, if I look at my own story, right, I mean I'm coming from hardcore implantables, medical devices. And I had to learn a lot on consumer marketing on this whole digital health, IT, data integration, data privacy, data security, all these kinds of things, right? Because we're selling integrations. So it's mainly about finding people that are clever, willing to learn and agile in their approach to adapt to this situation. An extra question for you Stephen regarding the brain agility. I really like this concept and no, I'm really curious about how do you assess, how do you evaluate because it's really something that it's talking I'm sure to Fabienne and myself a lot and when we are hiring it's something we are looking. But is there anything then you can share with us about how do you take your decision on that specific part which is it's something which is very, very soft but very critical also? Well I think it's a lot about unfortunately a lot about guts feeling. So it is this this thing I I tried to interview people in person if I can so not to do. I mean you do the first rounds about soon but I I I believe it's it would be important to see people kind of sit together for an hour and or an hour and a half we were we are doing role plays with people. Have them present on stuff or give them exercises and see how they kind of cope with it. So kind of case studies and things. That also helps a bit. But I think at the end of the day, it's all about kind of, yeah, is there a good personal click and do you think that this person can do it? It's also a bit kind of. I think I'm also looking into CVs. So basically, yeah, sometimes it might be a benefit if the CV is not too linear. So if people did different stuff and you see that they can cope with different things, yeah. But I agree, it's not that straightforward to find this, right. I mean, we also tend to, I mean, for the hiring that we did here in Europe. Last years we were using a very good recruitment firm that also helps, that really understands your needs and supporting that process. And then sometimes it also helps to just use your network because I mean we all know lots of people, we know people that are out there for roles and I think good recommendation. Of somebody that worked with another person and knows the person well from working together, I think is, yeah, is a super big benefit, right? And finally, there is nothing like overqualified. I always kind of stunned when people interview somebody and say, no, you're overqualified for the role. I mean, this is strange, right? I mean, how can you be overqualified either if somebody wants to do the role right and brings more things than is beneficial? I mean, you just have to be clear about what the role is and what the future opportunity is. But I mean, if somebody says I want to do this role, even if I've been superstar before and this is now a minor role. Why would you not try this? Yeah, I think it depends on what are the drivers behind the person's willingness to do the role. And that's right, because sometimes I see that like very, very, very strong CV and then like does the person have the good understanding of the level of the role and what is expected? And sometimes they simply don't. So I think it's important for us to probe on that and understand these drivers. Which is an interesting one, right? Because I mean, we have a kind of a culture of Step up, step up, step up. But we don't have a culture of people saying, hey, I want to just maybe towards the end of my career, step down a step just because of, yeah, responsibility and craziness and you don't want to cope with it anymore, right? So there might be many reasons or personal. Situation and where you need to cope with difference or send you in the middle of your life, right? I mean, you suddenly have a large family and kids and stuff and you want to somehow balance things maybe, and you don't want to be on a plane five days a week anymore. So there might be many reasons why people are also interested in not the next career move up, but potentially sidestep or even a small step down, right? But we don't have a real culture for this unfortunately. Yeah. No, that's very true. But I think we our role is to support these lateral moves and to make it clear to the people that they need to express it and that it's okay and that it's fully acceptable. So Stefan, moving away a little bit from the team side, I'm going back to your current activity. So you mentioned that you have a diverse customer base. So I would be interesting in understanding how do you stay in tune with your customer needs, customer feedback, how did you gather it and how does that inform your product development process at AliveCor? Well, I mean we, we have lots of customer feedback on the consumer side. I think we have 60 or 70,000 reviews on Amazon. So it's this is so this is massive and then. Next to that, there is some customer service done as well to understand the consumer side very well. And then on the professional side, I mean as the team is relatively small, we are all in constant discussion with customers about projects and product and implementation and use cases and. And how to use the product for different applications and how to do things and that information goes back into the product team, of course, right. So we have a small product organization as well in Mountain View and we have regular calls with them where we kind of discuss what we see as a need in the market and yeah. So this is how this cycle works, but I think we have a very close year on the customer needs from the way we work. So that basically all the team is in very close to customers here, right. As the team is so small, I mean for instance now in the conference season or in the Congress season, right? I mean we are going to conferences regularly and we. As the team is small, we're basically out there all the time. So we have a close, close ear on the customer which is critical. I really like also the example that you're taking of how you're balancing the the 60,000 review on Amazon, which is for sure very insightful at the same time to go through for sure intensive, but that giving a lot of different perspective and how do you balance that also with the more professional feedback you receive from the HCP. And you have been highlighting already a few times already about AliveCor and your organization is able to collect quickly the feedback to adapt, to innovate. And now we'd like to put that in the perspective with the regulatory environment which is changing in Europe. We are shifting from MDD to MDR. We are also in a very interesting diagnostic which is a mix of hardware, software, service and how do you. What your perspective regarding finding the right balance about bringing quickly the innovation and navigating a complex regulatory environment and oh, you are doing that on your day to day in your company. Well, I think it's not a balance really because I mean you cannot compromise on regulatory. So it is a regular hurdle that you need to take and it's complicated right now in Europe because I think that Europe did not do a great job in implementing. New rules and regulations, especially for small companies, it is difficult, it's difficult to get hurt by your notified bodies because notified bodies are very overloaded, right. And you see that in the regulatory landscape was just the extension of all the deadlines that because the companies are not ready with their MDR transitions. And yeah, so it is a. A system that is a bit, yeah, maybe broken is too big, but it's not well managed right now on the regulatory side and that certainly is holding back innovation, right. If I look into our own situation, we launched cardio mobile card, which is a credit card form factor ECG in the States already a year ago and we can't bring it to Europe because we need to get MDR cleared first. Right. So it's certainly holding back innovation here in Europe and that's certainly a problem right now as a company, you need to deal with this, right. So we will need to manage regulatory clearance and you will need to get innovation back. I think it's not a contradiction. Especially on our side, there is a lot of services around that you can still build that are not regulatory relevant. So from that sense where IT integrations or things that are not that are considered IT systems and not regulated medical devices. So there is certainly way. Still to innovate even under the current regulatory situation, but it's getting slower in Europe and I think it's a competitive disadvantage that we see when I, when we all worked in Medtronic, I mean we still have times when we were years ahead with new product launches in Europe, right. And at the moment you see actually happening the contrary, right, so companies are. Companies are launching in the US 1st and then in Asia and potentially later than in Europe, and I think this is a disadvantage for the companies and especially for the patients who have not access to these innovations. So we touched on one of the multiple challenges that the met tech industry is facing at the moment and we know this industry is constantly changing, new technologies are emerging all the time. So how? Stefan, do you anticipate major changes? What do you think are going to be some of the biggest challenge that we're going to face and how do you think technology will be playing a role in addressing them? Well, I mean there is a couple of major trends that we see at the moment. On the one side it's funding and money and budget restrictions, I think that many governments. I had very high spend now during COVID and they need to get their debt balance back in scale. So everybody is kind of cutting down budgets at the moment. And I think also the healthcare industry will feel this right, especially when there is commoditized products, you will see significant cost pressure and budget restrictions on these things. And then the other thing that we saw already is the difficulty on the regulatory side. That is a challenge, right. And the third difficulty that we see is also the very strict data privacy and data security side of things, right, that is slowing down things a bit. Now on the other side, there is lots of opportunity right now. Especially when there is this effort to cut budgets, people need to think healthcare differently. So how are we going to deal with patients and patient flows and disease states going forward? And technology can certainly play a role in this, right? I mean that we still need to go to see the doctor for minor things is like in the Middle Ages, right? I mean this should be all done by video calls and. And electronic means or that I need to go and see my doctor to get a drug prescribed, right. No need to go there. Or that the chronic disease patient needs to come to see the doctor every couple of weeks, although he could do this with telemedicine remotely. So there is many of these things where we need to change how we're doing healthcare. Up to now and think about how we can do this more efficiently with less money but also less personnel, right. I mean, we see that situation across Europe that there is not enough staff for care and that there is a limitation in doctors too. So people are burned out after three years of COVID and total overload and many were leaving healthcare. And so we need to think these things differently and technology will play a role. I mean, as I was just in Berlin this week on this digital health fair demia and I mean, this was massive, right? I mean, there was so many companies there that all try to shift healthcare into new ways of doing it. With less personal interaction, with more digital tools, more streamlined, more efficient for the benefits of the patients, for the benefits of the system and for the benefits of the budgets too. So I think it's important to find the sweet spot in these things. Thanks for summarizing all the transformation of healthcare which is happening or starting or should happen and it's very interesting or you articulate also to see the combination of not only the healthcare professional, but especially the technology, the process, the optimization. And like you mentioned, the most critical thing is to have positive value for the patient and for the healthcare system that will be critical. I have a last question for you before we go to the next step in our discussion today, which is about with a lot of people listening to us which are in the start or mid career or the marketing journey or business journey And would like to ask you when you reflect back on your own career or what you've seen, will you have any advice for somebody then want to develop himself herself in a marketing career and what would be critical to develop also in? And to put that in the frame of the transformation of healthcare currently happening, well, I think it's a very general statement though, but be curious, be flexible and keep learning your life long, right. I mean, it's changing so fast right now. And so I mean, keep your eyes open, read as much as you can, listen to podcasts. Listen to we agree and yeah, just be curious, I mean there is so many different and interesting things happening at the moment on artificial intelligence and digital health and new therapies and new diagnostic tools. And yeah, it's just fascinating. I think I still believe that the healthcare industry is one of the most interesting places. To be in for many reasons and one of my personal reasons is that every now and then you're going to meet a patient whose life you changed with the technology that you develop or sell or market or even or work in the logistics or in any function right where you touch this product you will meet the patients that life got changed by. This device that you are or technology that you are working on and this is so super motivating in reality, it's really a privilege working in healthcare and knowing that everybody can contribute to a patient impact and not only the impact of the patient but the family and all that you are describing. It's I'm connecting that to what you are discussing before which is the brain agility. That part for me, it's really something I take for discussion. Stefan, I suggest we switch the next part for a discussion, which is the behind the scene. You know, it's wonderful signature section in the podcast and of course was very interesting to discuss with you as a business leader, as marketer, as experience professional. But we'd like also to know more about you and I'm sure the audience is curious to discover the person behind the leader of this. Few questions which is more personal and the first one going back quite a long time in the past which is about. Not such a long time, Greg. So I'm projecting on myself, but a good student. Were you? Were you the good student? Were you the guy sitting in the back of the class or not being in the university? What was your approach in that? Well, I guess I was a middle class. Guy And not super great from a great point of view. I was certainly doing my stuff. I was doing a lot, I think, and learning a lot and kind of trying to get away with reasonable grades. The thing on my side was that I was always asking, hey, can we do things differently? This was one thing. And on the other side, kind of trying to be fast and effective. So I had a deal with my parents. Basically they would pay for my university education, but I had to get it done in a reasonable time. So yeah, so that I achieved Congrats, I'll take the same advice and the same discussion by kids. Next one, you know, you mentioned about being curious, brain agility and discovering all the time, any book. Or podcast or auto that you would recommend to an audience that has been impacting you. Yeah, I mean, I have a couple of books that I can recommend, actually. I mean one author who is actually Coach and I had the pleasure back in my Medtronic Diabetes Times to have a group coaching session with him. Once in California is Marshall Goldsmith. And he wrote a book that I actually still have here on my desk, which is called What Got You Here, Won't Bring You There. And it's a kind of listing, a list of things that you should stop. And I like that actually. So there is things like adding too much value in meetings and saying but. When you give comment to somebody and all these kind of things and if you read through this, you will kind of find yourself and you will find many things that you can change. So it's good read and it's fun to read and easy to read. The other one that is kind of really I think influenced also the way I do things on the marketing side is Geraldine's influence, which kind of is how to. Persuade people. I think it's the subtitle. So it's kind of about all these manipulative things in marketing, but it's interesting. Don't see what you're talking about, Stefan. There is no manipulation in marketing. What are you saying? One thing which is when we're preparing this call, you're in a Co working place and you were also explaining you're traveling a lot. Which is of course a big change compared to your previous life. And I'm really curious about how do you stay focused or do you stay motivated knowing also that you are in an environment which is a lot more self driven? Yeah, I mean I developed certain daily routines, so I'm kind of, if I'm working from the office or working from home, I have kind of a very standard routine, I start to work at 8 independently. Always. I'm in the office at 8. It's kind of the daily thing. And then during COVID, when we suddenly couldn't travel anymore and you were basically Home Office based all the time, I kind of started. I can't sit here the whole day, 10 hours. So I started a daily routine of walking. Usually during lunch break, I take an hour and go and walk and maybe listen to podcasts or listen to news or listen to nothing. And that really kind of helps me to clean the brain again midday. It helps me to stay fit because it's kind of a, yeah, it's almost a bit of a power walk pill here, Austria, we have lots of hills. And I mean, if you count it up, if I think about this now, within three years, I most probably walked kind of, yeah, 1500 kilometers, right. So it's actually, yeah, it's helping to keep the brain fit and it's keeping the health the body fit too. Combining the truth. Important. It's not only about, you know from the mental point of view the physical being physically fit. But the combination of all and the next one is about, you know about oh you are enjoying your free time And you know we know that you're traveling a lot for your for your for your work. You have three kids. I'm sure it's already feeling more than 24 hours in the day. But anything you do then you are for yourself in your free time. Yeah. Well, we don't travel that much anymore as we as we did in the good old days, right. I mean these Zoom meetings and got also very much accepted now the customers, right. So we're doing lots of things over phone and we're not traveling that much anymore. And I think this is good for the environment and good for us too by the way. Yeah, family is important certainly as an Austrian, I tend to go for skiing in winter time. You have to as an Austrian you have no other. No other choice. And then I think The Walking got important to me, going to cinemas every now and then, theaters, culture stuff. And then the other habit that I have is that I read a lot, so I'm not watching television, linear television anymore, do a bit of things on streamings. But in reality, I stopped do this TV thing in the evening and I just read a book instead. And I enjoyed it a lot actually. There's good food for the brain and good healthy habit. And it seems that you're enjoying your own country a lot better for the sleep as well. Also also you know, you get the food package, which is really critical on the longevity. Also less, but at least any role model than you have and then you would like to share with the audience. Role models just difficult, I mean, I think. The people that are influenced me most from a professional side were just great bosses that I had and I had the pleasure of working with many great bosses throughout my career. I mean in the very early stage when my first managerial role was right away a distributed managerial role and. And I learned how to do this effectively from my previous manager, just kind of looking at him how it is dust is and how he copes with things and how he keeps things under control and how he keeps people motivated that are not sitting in the same office. And then throughout my career, I just had the pleasure of working with great people. Yeah, I mean, we, I think we have common managers that we learned from, right? I mean. I  know people like Joe Merkin and Julie Foster and Annette Bruels and just fantastic leaders that you can that you can copycat or try to copycat as sometimes impossible because. But then that's I think it's yeah it's all about having great leaders and then also every now and then having a leader. Where you see things, where you think I'm not going to do it that way. I think it's also important to every now and then have a not that ideal boss and learn from that too. And I'm sure if I will agree with me with the privilege the three of us to have really great leader. You mentioned a few of them. I agree with all the name you mentioned and it's also about what you can learn by observing. But also it's important if you have a duty or self. To be the role model and to operate well for the next generation and at the same time also to acknowledge and we can do the mistake yourself. Stefan, I would like to thank you under the name of Fabienne and myself to have been the guest today of the marketing consultation. A lot of interesting insights not only regarding your career, what you're building at a Lifecore, but also the transformation of healthcare and also self reflection and it's very insightful. Just a big thank you to have taken the time to share with the audience and. We wish you a good day. Thank you. Yeah. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Stephan and that bring us to the end of today's episode. We hope you found this discussion informative and insightful. We encourage you to continue the conversation and stay connected with us on LinkedIn and Instagram at the Marketing Consultation. If you have any question or topics you would like us to cover in the future episode, please do not hesitate to reach out. We need your help to grow the marketing consultation community. And have more healthcare marketers benefiting from the experience and advice of our speaker. Please feel free to share with your network and also to give us a five star rating on Apple podcast. This is super important to increase our visibility. Thanks again for listening and we look forward to bringing you more insight and ID from top healthcare leaders in our next episode.