S2E01: “The Power of Self-Reflection and Intentional Leadership”, with Clément Rey, Sr Marketing Director, Cranial Spinal Technologies Western Europe at Medtronic

Welcome to the second season of The Marketing Consultation. In this episode, we have the pleasure of hosting Clement Rey, a seasoned Medtech industry leader and a Co-Active Coach in training.

Clement's journey is a testament to the power of self-reflection and continuous learning. His career began with a series of exciting experiences abroad, including volunteer work in Peru and a stint in the hospitality industry in New York. These experiences, coupled with his time as a junior research analyst in a healthcare fund, shaped his interest in the healthcare sector and led him to pursue an MBA at INSEAD.

Today, Clement serves as the Senior Marketing Director for Cranial Spinal Technologies Western Europe at Medtronic. He held diverse marketing positions at Medtronic before moving into business management and being then back to marketing. His leadership journey is guided by his life purpose of supporting others to thrive by becoming a better person.

In this episode, Clement shares his insights on the evolution of marketing in the Medtech industry. He recalls his first product launch, a time when marketing was focused on producing leaflets, brochures, and leveraging specific congress to support launches. Fast forward to today, and the landscape has dramatically changed. The industry is now embracing an omnichannel approach, integrating functions, utilizing data, and focusing on customer and buying journeys.

Clement emphasizes the importance of curiosity, being realistic yet optimistic, and self-awareness as the top qualities of an exceptional leader. He believes that leaders should be as curious about themselves as they are about others, allowing for continuous growth and authenticity.

He also shares his personal approach to maintaining balance in his life, which includes nurturing his heart, soul, and brain. Clement's story is one of determination, passion, and the joy of seeing people thrive. It's a story that will inspire you to reflect, learn, and grow.

Please do not hesitate to share your feedback with us on our LinkedIn or Instagram pages and to give us a rating on iTunes. This is very important to help us grow The Marketing Consultation community... 

Transcript

0:04

Hi everyone and welcome to the Marketing Consultation, the podcast for Healthcare Marketers by Healthcare Marketers. In the marketing consultation, Greg and I are having biweekly conversations with top leaders from the healthcare industry to uncover the key experience, insights and advice when it comes to carry on development, leadership and building high performing teams or marketing strategy and innovation. Whether you work in healthcare marketing or are interested in this field, our goal is to help answer your key questions and challenges and support you in your professional growth so that you can accelerate your career and stay ahead of the curve. In today's episode, we have the pleasure to welcome Clemore, an experienced commercial and marketing leader who recently embarked on a new adventure in the Coronal Spinal division of Medtronic, including imaging, spine and robotics. We dive into an engaging conversation where Clemmer reflect on his transition from a marketing position to leading a large and diverse sales organization and back in marketing leadership. We recorded this episode just before Clemmer was back in this new marketing role. He shares insight, accomplishment, and the unique challenges he faced during this journey, especially in the post COVID era. Clemon also touched upon this recent certification as a coach, revealing his continuous post suite of personal and professional development. Hello Clemon and welcome to the marketing consultation. We are really honored to have you with us today and are very much looking forward to this conversation claim. Although we never worked directly together, we've known each other for several years. You also known Greg for over 10 years. We followed each other and I must say you've had a very impressive career with a lot of accomplishments. And as a warm up to start with, I would actually like to go back to the beginnings of your career and particularly you had several very exciting experiences abroad. So could you please a little bit share about this and your insights and what this experience brought to you? Sure. Well, first of all, thank you Fabian. Thank you Greg for welcoming me to your podcast. It's super exciting. I'm excited for you for what's coming with your podcast and excited to be here today and very honored as well. So to go back to welcome to go back to your question. So you know, I'm French. I come from a very traditional French background with prep school and undergrad business schools, but very young. I had the opportunity to go abroad and one opportunity really led to another and I was really free at that time. So I just joined whatever pleased me. So during my studies, I stopped to go and volunteer in Peru. So that that took me nearly a year and a half. And then from there they needed somebody in the US to start raising funds. As a matter of fact, I had studied at the Ohio State University and I enjoyed it. So I said, well, you know, I don't have any ties. Why not? So I started raising funds for them in New York City which was really exciting and then you know learning organization, relationship and and wanting to do more, I just stayed there and joined a hospitality. You know I had this French accent that was pleasing party guards and and and and people who were making parties. So it was a French catering firm doing also high end events and so I was a a salesperson there from and I did everything from receptionist to self manager going on site with clients and and managing than at that time. So you know All in all I did you know fundraising. Then I moved into into this hospitality industry and they closed just just the American way from one day to another. You're called by the lawyers in an office and then they say thank you for your service. The company is closing today. This is your last paycheck. Good luck with everything. Luckily, I had a friend in a healthcare fund who hired me as a junior or research analysts. Really. And so that allowed me to bridge six months between the end of this job and and my MBA. And so I discovered finance and healthcare and then you know the the rest is history because I joined in Seattle at that moment and then healthcare was really my calling and I found it during this six months time. So yeah, pretty rich abroad and I enjoyed it and I was free, you know, just moving from one place to another. It was fun, great and we won't judge you definitely on on your French accent, Clement. So just just one question on, on what you described. I'm really intrigued by Peru. So why Peru? Because it's maybe not the most usual kind of destination to choose early career. And did you speak Spanish at the time? So I didn't choose Peru, I was sent to Peru. So that's the funny part. I was in the middle of my studies. You know, I was young. I started to understand that I was relatively privileged, you know, and probably wanted to give back a little bit before going into the corporate world. So I met this organization and it sent me to to Peru in a really daycare center. And no, I didn't speak a word of Spanish. It wasn't a problem because over there, nobody speak, spoke French or or English. So it was easy for me to just move and learn Spanish and Spanish is not the most complex language for French speaking people. So yeah, so again an opportunity that I took. So that was fun, super interesting and especially to see or you've been navigating in this uncertainty and ambiguity and at the same time making the most out of it. And I suggest we Fast forward and we are looking to what you are doing today and you are leading not only you are leading a marketing group but also know a business group. And I'm curious to get your perspective about what you have seen from the evolution in metric marketing and where do you think it will go also in the future? Yeah, that's a great question and that's a hard transition you know from fun times in Peru to evolution of Med tech. But let me take a stab at it. So I still remember my first launch back in 2000 and nine 2010. This company was just acquired by Medtronic, the company I work for today. And it was not a very traditional launch still. You know, we were throwing money at agencies looking at visuals, looking at very static leaflet brochures, launching at a specific Congress and spending hours and really 10s of thousands of dollars into a one specific moment with the hope that the the product would would take off. You know that's seen pre history now it was very unique channel, nothing was really integrated between functions and what you see. And even though we have, I think you might agree with me that Med tech is still way beyond other industries in terms of marketing and FMCG take FMCG pharma. We are still touching fast I think and we're now looking more at Omni channel, looking more at using data, looking more at customer journey, buying journey specific touch points and that's really the the, the evolution today. I I still remember a very good article I think it was from BCG 6-7 years ago which was called moving Beyond the Milkman. It was updated two years ago I think and it talked about self but it talked about self integrated into the selling journey and I think they were spot on but they were probably too early for for my second right now we we're all moving in that in that direction of of Omni channel. Yeah maybe if I can add something is Omni channel is not campaigns it's about strategy. And so as anything around strategy and especially with marketing in Medsec we shouldn't underestimate the scope and and the build of the change. It takes talent, It takes the build, the build up and the gathering of and the updates of data all the time. We need to be, you know, because data used to be static. Now it's very dynamic and how do you capture the dynamic data? It depends on the infrastructure, how do we build the capacity to go at scale. And there needs to be integration between marketing and self because marketing will generate leads, sales is going to follow up on leads and close leads. So if there is a broken thing in between then it doesn't work. And maybe one last comment on this one, I think we're seeing the end of the good marketing generalist. You know there needs to be some good knowledge across the different topics in marketing, but you see product marketing, you see customer experience and around Omni channel it really takes a lot of knowledge and experience and so the Jack of all trades I think is a is a thing of the past. So thanks for your very comprehensive answer. Claymore, I totally agree with you and the needs to move to Omni channel model, but I also think it comes with a lot of challenges and change in mindsets and way of doing. You mentioned that it also requires to attract the right talents. So I would be interested in understanding from you what do you consider are required competencies or skills to bring in the marketing team in our Med tech environment to be able to create and deliver Omni channel strategies I'm sure. So first maybe an understanding, not maybe first an understanding of what Omni channel means because it's still relatively new in Medtech. So I would hire and I have hired from external partners not in Medtech, in pharma, in FM, CG just to you know build the knowledge of the team. Another key specific skills is the understanding of the data and how data are processed through Omni channel and how the use of data is key. So and not static data, you know really dynamic data and how to build the infrastructure and then also the understanding of the time it takes. You know, right now you take a very traditional market here you need a brochure, you meet the agency, you for the brochure, you launch a brochure. When it comes to Omni channel strategy, it's a lot of fine tuning and it takes time and you can't say at one stage, yes, we want absolutely. You can always build on the failure to redirect your strategy and that's a different kind of mindset. I I think the other mindset change our seat is also maybe to educate the field teams to the fact that leads might be generated for digital channels or other channels and then to follow up on these leads. So how did you approach this to really bring the field team on board in this Omni channel journey. That's a very good point. I focused on marketing the link with the with the self force and educating on that front is if key I'm we're not there yet I don't think we're there yet. I think as anything new you need your early adopters and you need to constantly repeat the message. What I found very useful is to tap into the younger or yeah the younger Salesforce that is more open to Omni channel and see it as a help rather than a competition. You know some of the more adaptive older generation sees that as well, but not and not everybody. So using champions in the self force is clearly one way to show it. And then looking at the numbers, you know self people are driven by their quota, by their AOP, by achieving their self. If you can prove that with Omni channel strategies they're more likely to reach their targets then any sales Rep will will embrace it and will understand it at the end of the day. One caveat is that they are key to not only following up on the lead, but also creating the data and the dynamic data through platforms like selfforce.com or other type of CRM you might be using. We need their input to make the the strategy work in the long run. So working on that aspect and pharma was always very good at it, not giving it as an option, but putting it as mandatory and part of the goal. And I think that's something that in math tech we should all be doing as well because that's the key of good and sustainable Omni channel strategy we're trying. Yeah. And I see more than you are combining multiple element, not only the strategic part, the tactics, the Omni channel, the connection between the marketing team, the business team Also what you've done in your career moving from marketing to business. And if you look back you know your reputation is also strong regarding your belief in individuals and the ability to build I impact team, I functioning team. And for me, it will be curious to understand what would be your guidance then you will give to your younger self regarding data specs, regarding, you know, building the team and how do you bring everything together and create the magic also, yeah, for my reputation, I don't know to be honest, but at least it's my read and the read of Fabian, lot of people also do. So you can leave that to us. It's fine. Absolutely. Now going back to the second-half of the question, I had a leader early on who loved a specific proverb that was that says if you want to go fast, go alone, If you want to go far, go together. Very early on in my career, I didn't really believe in the second part. I was more, you know, go alone, be driven, go ambitious goals. You know, people might be hindering to achieving your result. And I was wrong very simply. And I learned. And so today I'm really, I don't know if obsessed is the right word, but I'm I'm really, for me it's very important to surround myself with people who want to strive and grow because altogether we can achieve the results. So if I go back to your question first, hiring is probably the most important step that I will ever took in creating A-Team. You know, I I'll give you a specific example twice I did rescind an offer in the past thirteen years. It hurts because it feels disrespectful and at the same time I really felt that past the offer stage the person was behaving differently and then that was becoming a risk to the team afterward. So I still think it was the right decision. Because higher rights is so important, I'd rather wait another three months than hire the wrong person. The other advice I would give myself is learn to say no or learn to do things based on your own terms. You know, why don't you take that other project? Ohh I have a great straight assignment. Well is it great because I take it off your plate or is it great because it will help me learn and when do I need to do it? So you know, having all those conversation and not saying yes to everything is something that I would that I would definitely give as an advice to my to my younger self something that's probably personal. And very important is that tolerance to ambiguity is something that is very personal. What I mean by that is Gray zone. You know we've had a lot of changes in my current company and probably in all companies and I'm okay with it. You know, I I don't need clear direction all the time. Other people will need a lot more clarity and I need to pay attention to that because I want to create an environment where people feel safe and feel that they know where they're going. And then the last one is, if you're going to create a great environment, there is a life behind the worker in every team member. And so again, creating this environment for the people to be truly themselves, remove the mask if they want to because you will never force anybody to to remove the mask if they don't want to and model it first. So being your genuine self but also a bit of vulnerability at work help others being more vulnerable and creating an environment that will be more satisfying for everybody. And I think that's especially true for the younger generation who really thrive in that environment, also wants that environment. Thanks Clement. So if we now move forward later in your career, so you had several positions in different business units of Medtronic and in 2019, you embarked on a new adventure by assuming a senior commercial leader position in the spine division of Medtronic. So now you're a leader of that's a big and diverse sales organization with I think several hundreds of people. So our question is, what have been your most valuable insights that you can share with us and your accomplishment going in this journey from the marketing position to the leader of a large sales organization. Very, very interesting move right after COVID, very interesting question. When, when I started, I still remember that there was 5 things I was looking at. You know, what's the strategy of the business? What is the culture and how are people engage, what's our frontal of innovation, What's our customer engagement? And I would say customer satisfaction and are there any big red flags or risk management? How do I take care of any big red flag at 1st? And I found that Pasco with the the culture and the engagement was was key. But maybe a mistake I made earlier is that I focused an enormous amount of this. And was not as intentional with some of the five items I described. So I got a little bit sucked in into a different bucket, and I wasn't as intentional as I wanted to be. So what I learned is that in those five buckets that are for me, you know the, the cornerstone of what I need to do on a daily basis even if one takes precedence, I really need to be intentional with the five of them and and giving the right attention to the five of them. You know I still, I still remember a conversation with you Greg when you changed job a couple of years ago where you said, look I took my job and I went on and visited customer very early on because I wanted to show the the self theme that it was a cornerstone for me. And and I still have that very much in mind because that's something that now I'm doing. But earlier none that I didn't do as much. Still, if I go back, culture and engagement was very big and So what was important to maybe build more enthusiasm post COVID is listening, listen, listen, listen and then give direction relatively quickly. That's people were expecting. I wasn't going to do it until I was ready. Still there was an expectation to steer the ship. That was my position and and that's what that's what I intended to do and that's what I did. But spending time and really listening internal and external was very very very important at first with such a large organization. Maybe one last aspect, especially post COVID where we had quite a few issues with supply is having the ability to dive and then go back to helicopter view and not stay in one mode or another cuz I always needed to do the yoyo, if you see what I mean, going in the trenches and then also going back and and seeing the 360 view. It's something again being intentional about it and being able to stop breeze and say OK, So what is the situation? Am I focusing too much on the operational or am I just too much on the strategy part of the ivory tower and disconnecting from my customer and and from my internal and external customers. Now what I really enjoy coming out when we are exchanging is really about the self reflection and looking back and you know not only acknowledging the good elements but also what you want to do differently and or you want to continuously improve and that's really amazing. We just would like to go back to mention a few time regarding the the post COVID era and the COVID time and also where we are today. And can you tell us more about, you know, what's important for you for rebuilding the relation, rebuilding a new world, looking to it differently and you've done it in your organization? Yeah, absolutely. COVID pushed us at an extreme. There was a sense of, look, we can now do everything remote, We can live wherever. The world will never be the same. And I have to agree that it will never be the same. And that work has changed for goods, bringing flexibility in the workplace to a level we've never seen. At the same time, I don't think people, all the people, realize how isolated we wear from one another. I was discussing recently with a with a partner from Corn ferry who wrote a book about burnout and and she was telling me about, you know, all the interview she did with this book and COVID was an accelerator of burnout because you're secluded and so post COVID what I did very early on as soon as I could is I asked the team to come back to the office two days a week and I asked him which days are convenient for you. You know I'm not going to mandate any days. Tell me that as a team we choose the date it ended up being Tuesdays and Thursdays because you know Monday, Friday, I guess too close from the weekend and Wednesdays you have the you have the the kids for for some of the team members. So you know flexibility built in and at the same time you know meeting in person, innovation face to face. During those those two days I still see people struggling to come back to the office and not seeing exactly the value. I would strongly encourage team leaders to force people to come back and and sorry to use that term but I think for everybody's own goods it is very important to keep face to face meeting and probably all companies do engagement surveys and when you ask people you know what would drive engagement, Oh well, face to face meetings. Oh well Okay. So you can have that every day right at the office. You know it it's just putting one and one together and recreating that humane link and bringing humanity in person, flesh and bones back at the office. For me is is is crucial when we can for some people they're they're working approach and so it's taking every opportunity when you visit a customer when you're at a conference to meet them in person. It also shows their that, that you that you do care. And I'm not going to cite every studies out there. There are studies really that show that the way the way you you talk and the way you express yourself with your body account for nearly half or 40% of the message that you deliver. And so through Zoom or through remote, I think you lose part of that fertility of the communication and then you know efficiency of work, those kind of things are lost in inflation as well. Yeah, I agree with you clearly on the value of face to face. But also you're right, it's it's a challenge because it's still difficult for people to come back. And I think our role as leaders is to find that balance between having kind of a minimum time of face to face presence for the team but also allowing for flexibility. So that people can still feel they are in control of their schedule and can really adapt to their individual needs. So I think that's a very fair point, absolutely. So Climel, since we've known each other, we've noticed with Greg that you've been deeply passionate about individuals, diversity, inclusion and belonging and actually long before it became, let's say a trendy or a critical aspect to any organization. So can you enlighten us on what has been the driving force behind your passion and vision for talent development and building diverse teams? Well, as I mentioned earlier, it was not always the main focus. It became more something that I learned. But now I can say it's rooted in my life purpose. You know, for me it's about supporting others to thrive by becoming a better person. So I give you part of my life of my life purpose. So I think there is also a part of me that a big part of me that's a perfectionist and I really wanted to understand how to maximize the impact of individuals and team. I don't know if you've seen that, but sometimes you see someone, you see the raw talent, you see all the promises and for some reason you can't really figure out how to unlock the the talent of that person. And for me, you know, putting different people together with a way to achieve business results but also allowing people to to to develop. If I have time, I'd love to tell you just the one short story. Very early on in my career I I was marketing manager and there were several marketing manager and there was one thing that was not going on with another marketing manager and I decided to invite that person for lunch. So we had lunch, and I looked at the person in the eyes and I said, I understand something's wrong, tell me what's happening. And I received the most brutal feedback I ever received. The person pretty much told me that I was abroad and that I was really, really, really too, too competitive and that I didn't care about any other people and myself. And so it went on and on and on. So you know, I left at lunch really, really heavy and that made me think, you know, that's not, that was not me, but that's the way other people were perceiving, perceiving me. And so how was I going to have a positive impact and make oneonone with my life purpose if that was the way people were, were seeing me. So I had to work on myself. And then I I wanted for others to avoid the same traps as as this one. So it was about learn, learn and learn over and over again. And you know, seeing people thrive is really putting joy in me, right. I love it because they're happy, the team is happy, we're delivering as a team. I mean, it creates a great working environment. And so ultimately, it's really being able to do 2 things, my life purpose and making sure we had two business results together, which is individual, team and business that's as easy as that. That's really my driving force and came out a question for you really that will allow you to wrap all these elements of leadership, self reflection, authenticity and also being able to to look in the mirror and to accept challenging feedback that I think it's quite an amazing insight And you just gave and I would like to ask you if you look what would be the top three quality of an exceptional leader, what would be the three top quality? Then you say that's really something which is critical. All right. So first we need to be curious, very curious about people about the business asking questions. I think curiosity is is a key skills of exceptional leaders because they look at things differently. Then I would say that exceptional leader and maybe I should go to to that first exceptional leader for me are the one that take care of the how and the what at the same time and are delivering sustainable results. You know we talk a lot about team and development ultimately it's for purpose or so and that's grounded in the company. So being realistic, optimistic is also the second one for me. Realistic, meaning they look at the reality and they know they need to act. Optimistic is like being able to see beyond the one moment today you might have a problem with your product, you might have customers unhappy, you might have, I don't know, you name it, you might have issues. But at the end of the day, there is a strategy that's the path we're taking, driving the direction and we're taking the steps that are needed. So really being a realistic, optimistic and then at the format of everything is that they need, they need to know themselves really well and never box themselves. They need to be as curious with themselves as they are with others. So allowing themselves to grow and be genuine on a regular basis and if I can finish with something is exceptional. Leaders are rare, but you can nearly scrap all what I said because it's a recipe. What I remember about exceptional leaders is that they make you feel good 99.9% of the time. You leave tough conversation, you feel energized. You leave good conversation, you feel energized. You. I don't know. They have, they have something about them that really speaks to each individual specifically. And that's a very, very rare trait. Yeah. Thanks, Kevin, for sharing your perspective on great leaders. So we would like to maybe move away a little bit of your core responsibilities and work you recently certified as a coach and I'm really, really curious to understand what triggered you desire to take that training on top of everything else that you already have to do in your daily life. And is it a sign that maybe a career change is coming? Career change? I that's not the goal. And again I will not box myself as as a followup of the previous question even though I'm not an exceptional leader. Right. But I will not box myself till you know. I think from the conversation we've had it came just naturally. How do I go to the to to the next level in bringing the best out of everybody And maybe I should shy away from me bringing the best, but how do I empower others to give their best? Because that's the root of coaching right people. We are all self-sufficient and we have the resources as long as we know the whys and as we know the triggers. And that's what fascinated me. You know there are some people I could not find the key and for a good reason because I was not the one to find the key. Those people needed to find their resources. And so to develop further, I understood. I needed more. I needed more understanding on how people work. I needed more understanding of myself as well and my own biases. And that's what coaching really brought, you know, and increased emotional intelligence and, yeah, great accomplishment, Kimmel. So with this coaching expertise, now that you have, how are you concretely leveraging that in your professional and maybe personal life? And how do you feel it has been impacting the way you lead your team or interact with others? I think about that all the time. So maybe the first thing don't try to coach your partner. This never works. They can, they can smell it. For my teenager it's it's a little bit more useful. But at home, just don't try with your partner really. So in the work setting, I think it gives another color to the palette of my style of leadership. I I can't become a coach 100% of the time and then you know a mentor and other 100%. You see what I mean? I I need really to choose the right moment. What I find really useful with coaching is to find the time to have indepth conversation. So for example career conversation are very well suited for for coaching or things that are not that urgent that required a little bit the sometimes the comment and control if it's urgent and and it's really how do you empower your team to find their own their own solution. So I'm far from being perfect, You know, I've just been certified and for me it's about bringing perspective. It's about giving more color to my palette, if I can use this metaphor. And so trying to use it more and more, not always achieving that, but I look forward to using it even more on a daily basis. So yeah, a journey ahead of me for sure. Exciting journey. Absolutely. And came after discovering the young came out, the marketer, the coach, the leader. Let's go now to a signature section for her podcast, which is about the behind the scene question and I'm sure then both Fabian and myself and also will be happy to discover who is the person behind the leader, then who we just exchanged. And my first question for you, it's about how do you balance your professional life, personal life and also your energy levels, which are strongly connected between the two lives. Yeah, so absolutely connected. It's a big topic for me. Health comes first, now physical and mental. I think COVID for all of us and for for me really enlighten us on the need to to balance really that that mental health part. And you know I realized at some stage that if I don't change anything at 1st, I'm going into the wall and then I can't evolve anymore. So I really need looked at all aspects. You know I would say heart, soul and brain. So reading for me is a way to feed my brain. The soul is about spirituality. I think it's it's very personal to to every everybody that I think there is a part that needs to be nurtured there and heart is the heart but also that the physical aspect. So you know I take care of myself through nutrition, through breathing exercises, through sports. I just part is to do a cold swimming in the lake because I'm next to the Geneva lake. It has amazing benefits. I love it. You know, sleep is key as well. I fortunate not to have young kids anymore so I can have a good 7 to 8 hours sleep asleep every night. And yes, sports and nature are for me the the key of balancing. So we just finished a couple of of weeks ago. Ski season for me, skiing is every weekend and during during summer it's about you know, still going in the mountains and just walking because I find it very calming and allows me to be in connection with yes nature, my creative self. So and all this with my family, you know, I'm sorry, I'm very self-centered right now but obviously spending time with my partner and my kids is crucial. It's quite impressive, you know, every time you post your cold swimming and with the real time temperature of the Lemon lake, and I'm impressed you mentioned that, you know. The giving food to the brain is critical. And I know you have a big reader and any one title of a book then you would recommend to our audience just one, because I know you can provide a lot, but what will be the single one you will give to us? Yeah, I will give too. Sorry Greg. So the first one is, it's OK, it's OK buy one, get one. If you have a partner, I would strongly recommend a Couple that works by Jennifer Patrick Leary. She's a a professor at Inciad. It's How do you strive at work and at home? For me and my wife, it was nothing short of a revolution and it really helped us both at work and at home. So look, I strongly recommended the second one is a very old fashioned 1 My First 90 Days by Michael Watkins. It's a fundamental work reading it in detail, applying it to new jobs or simply to new project is key to succeed in that project. I think it's an amazing book. Yeah, agree. And I will definitely buy the couple at work book. Thanks Kim for the recommendation. Yeah, doing the same. I will buy 2 copy, one for me, one for my partner, but not all good. Just before we started the recording today, you were just mentioning then you have been traveling for private with your family and you have a heavy traveler both professional but also private and you know you like to bring your the full family, your kids, your partner across the world and what are the top 2 next destination and you're looking for what So Japan is clearly next on the bucket list. And Chile, yeah, I I'm craving South America. I used to live in Peru as I mentioned I I never had the opportunity to go to Chile and I think it's a very different country within South America because of the end this. And so I really want to see it. I think you can come to for me and myself for advice at least in Japan. So you're welcome. And last, but at least, and I'm really curious because you've been teasing us regarding that question, who is the most famous person you ever met? So do you know Shun Kant, the Puff Daddy, the rapper? Does that ring a bell? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. PDD Puff Daddy. We didn't follow all the name change, but yes, many names. So yeah, when I was in New York I worked for the fragrance launch called Unforgivable Woman and I met him. Yeah. I really met him during that that event. So I think yeah, I I've seen other people but really met he's the most famous person. So yeah. A rapper. I think it's when you. Yeah. It's gonna be hard to compete against that for our next speakers came on. Yeah. You said the level. Kelly. You said the level came on for myself. Would like to to thank you for, you know this episode of the marketing administration. There was a very insightful thanks for being very authentic and very transparent about the self reflection. And with that we would like to wish you a good day and also for our audience. If you want to reach to Kimor, feel free to connect on LinkedIn. Kimor thanks a lot for your time and especially for the session. Thank you, Greg. Thank you for the end and that brings us to the end of today's episode. We hope you found this discussion informative and insightful. We encourage you to continue the conversation and stay connected with us on LinkedIn and Instagram at the Marketing Consultation. If you have any questions or topics that you would like us to cover in future episodes, please do not hesitate to reach out. We need your help to grow the marketing consultation community and have more healthcare marketers benefit from the experience and advice of our speakers. Please feel free to share with your network and to give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcast. This is super important to increase our visibility. Thank you again for listening and we look forward to bringing you more insights and ideas from top healthcare leaders in our next episode.