S2E03: “From Strategy to Execution: The Importance of Actionability”, with Mathieu Badard, Vice President & General Manager, Joint Replacement, Europe at Stryker

In this new episode of The Marketing Consultation, we are joined by Mathieu Badard, a seasoned leader in the healthcare industry, who currently serves as the Vice President & General Manager for Joint Replacement, Europe at Stryker. 

Mathieu's journey is one of continuous learning and adaptation. In our conversation, he shares his wealth of knowledge and talks about his early days as a sales representative, where he learned the importance of understanding customer behaviors and needs, without making assumptions.

As Mathieu moved to marketing and business management roles, he discovered the perfect recipe for business success: a good strategy coupled with excellent execution. He emphasizes that a strategy is only as good as its actionable, and he would always prefer a good strategy with perfect execution over the opposite.

Mathieu also shares his insights on the challenging transition from an individual contributor to a people manager role. He stresses the criticality of understanding the new role and what success looks like in the eyes of your leader. He also highlights the need to accept that you will not control everything and that your performance will be the sum of your team's performance.

In addition to his professional insights, Mathieu shares his philosophy on work-life balance. He believes in maintaining a life balance, where work is an important part but not the entirety. He emphasizes the importance of exercise, mindfulness, spending time with family, and being transparent about your feelings.

Mathieu's story is one of determination, adaptability, and a deep understanding of the dynamics of the healthcare industry. Tune in to this episode to learn from Mathieu's experiences and get ready to be inspired!

Please do not hesitate to share your feedback with us on our LinkedIn or Instagram pages and to give us a rating on iTunes. This is very important to help us grow The Marketing Consultation community...  

Transcript

0:04

Hi everyone and welcome to the Marketing Consultation, the podcast for Healthcare Marketers by Healthcare Marketers. In the marketing consultation, Fabian and I are having Biwiki conversation with top leaders from the healthcare industry to uncover their key experience, insight and advice when it comes to career development, leadership, building, high performing team or marketing strategy and tools. Whether you're working in healthcare, marketing or you are interested in this field, our goal is to help you answer the key question and challenges to spur you in your professional growth so that you can accelerate your career. In today's episode, we are delighted to welcome Macho Badar, A seasoned leader in the healthcare industry with a strong background in medical device sales, marketing and management. Matthew currently serves as the Vice President and General Manager of Joint Replacement for Europe at Striker. He has navigated a rich and diverse career, transitioning from the sales reps and commercial world to being a key player in healthcare business leadership. In our conversation, Matthew shares his journey filled with continuous learning, adaptability and a deep understanding of customer needs. He takes us through his career transitions. The challenges of stepping into new roles and the rewards that come with embracing change. Welcome Matthew to the marketing consultation. It's a pleasure and privilege to host you today both for Fabian and myself. You know, we had the pleasure to meet for the first time 15 years ago when you were leading marketing team for Metronic Friends in the Kardak Rhythm Management and there was a junior marketer in the tiny country next to you from Belgium and we had the pleasure to learn a lot from you and from your team. So welcome with us today. And as a first question, I would like to go deeper regarding your current role. You are the Vice President and the General Manager for a Striker Europe for the joint replacement. And I'm curious to know what are your biggest opportunities, biggest challenge then you're facing and all you're driving this innovative therapy also. Yeah. Thanks Greg and thanks for being and please don't make it too loud that it was 15 years ago because the impression it was only a few years ago and but but again I mean thanks because I think it's it's really a pleasure to to reconnect and talk about I think our favorite topic because we are all so passionate about health scare that it's it's always a big pleasure to to share you know our findings. So, yeah, so about the the opportunity and the challenge of of the environment, you know, I think I think we are very lucky to be the healthcare environment and I've seen only growth, you know seen the last 25 years in different environment, different company and we've been growing very, very regularly. And what is very interesting nowadays is in this post COVID world, the game has changed significantly because the product availability is very different. You know, in the past I've seen you know, product availability, sorry, was never a problem. You know, the problem was to sell and to let's say achieve the target. But it was always easy to let's say to provide the product to the customer when basically the world has restarted all the supply chain suddenly we've seen some bottleneck and we've seen some bigger challenge around the supply. So building some new capacity I think is a challenge that we see. So there are some huge investments you know in our manufacturing plant to to increase the capacity. And on the other side, another challenge that we see is, is really the change in terms of regulation, you know is the change of EUMDR you know the rules to to put a new product on the market have changed you know in the last years and it's much more complex to launch a new product and the level of expectation in terms of click all studies done locally is very different versus what we are used to. So that's another big challenge. So that's two challenge that we need to keep in mind trying to maintain the growth and obviously we are facing the inflation and the interest rate change like in every industry it's impacting the raw material costs, it's impacting you know the manufacturing costs in general. So we have the obligation to find efficiency in the system. So obviously there is lots of work to find efficiency to maintain the profitability. So to make sure that we continue to innovate because at the end of the day all the profitability that we generate, one of the objective is really to continue to innovate. So that's what I would say the opportunity and challenges nowadays in this post COVID world. Matthew, could you maybe talk to some of, let's say, concrete examples of how you've approached some of these challenges being manufacturing, shifting to MDR or inflation. Do you have any example of how for your division you decided to implement new actions or new ways of doing business to try to mitigate the impact of maybe one or two of these challenges? So I mean as I mentioned in terms of capacity, what we have done is pretty simple. We have invested you know, lots of money to let's say to increase the capacity of our manufacturing plants. You know in Europe we have several, you know, big sites and especially in islands, you know, we have a huge manufacturing line and we have invested massively, you know, in these new plants. That's one thing that we do. Also one thing that we are changing is we try to be much more strategic on pricing. And you know looking back, you know in the industry, I'm not sure you know we talk about the four piece of marketing. I'm not sure that we spend lots of time on pricing and that's probably something that we need to change. So being more deliberate about the pricing, you know spending more time understanding how to position the value of the product or to play with the pricing as a strategic approach, you know in the marketing side that's something that we change completely. And regarding the pricing component, which is I will say the forgotten P of the market for the marketers, we are enjoying a lot of the three others. Can you elaborate or you have been bringing that across your organization, not only from strategic point of view at your level, but across the organization both on the marketing and the commercial site. So probably what I will say on pricing is let's in the healthcare industry we have a history of providing multitude of service with our product. It could be training, it could be clinical support, it could be supporting the in the operating room and and and historically you know as the margin we are comfortable we were kind of not assessing what we are doing. I think one thing that we are, we try to do much more is to try to understand what are the different service. We'll need the service and let's make sure that we can put a value behind each service, you know, to connect, let's say the customer needs with basically the right product and let's say the right approach, because this one-size-fits-all nowadays that doesn't work anymore. So Matthew, you mentioned the importance of being able to address these different challenges including pricing and inflation to. To be able to continue to innovate and we know you because you have a particular interest in innovation, it started with telemedicine and now we have a specific interest in robotic surgery. So how did you become interested in that field and what led you to drive the adoption of strikers robotic assisted surgical systems in Europe? So I was very lucky when I started to work in the emergency medicine and I remember that it was the time where the revolution was to send vital signs or EKG, you know, into a fax machine. So we were, we were in the Congress on the booth, we will record the EKG and we'll send it to a fax machine which was 5 or 10 meter away from the booth. It was revolution. It was a complete revolution at the time and and and we I noticed pretty pretty fast that the company were able to innovate but the market was not ready for that or at least the reimbursement system we are not ready for that because it takes time you know to assess any innovation. So we I've started with that I work also on other aspect like you know electronic patient record system. I worked on on lots of different aspects before in the moving to the robotic side you know within Striker I was lucky enough to join one of the division name the judge replacement that's how I discovered the robotic part let's say of of this this business and I was I was fascinated on on several aspects. The first one I think it's important to understand that robotic is part of a system you know I mean a robot by itself doesn't bring lots of value. So I think the robotic is just the natural evolution of a system and there are several aspects or several parts in the system. The first thing is you need to make sure that you have great implants. So you need to know to record lots of passion data to make sure that you design implants that fits the majority of the anatomy of the passion. That's the first step. The second step is when there are some, let's say innovative shape of the implant, you need to make sure that you are able to manufacture the implant and sometimes it's also forcing you to to to take some some different approach on it. So one thing that we have developed a lot is the 3D printing on metal of the implant. So we are printing some of the implants which is you know completely new if you compare what was existing let's say a few years ago. So when you have, let's say, an implant that works very well and you don't want to manufacture it, the the next question is that how do you make sure that this implant is placed perfectly in the body and that's where the robot, let's say, is coming into the game. And what is fascinating with the robot is basically, instead of doing one surgery, you do 2 surgeries. So before the surgery, you're going to do a steady scan of the patient. You're going to build a virtual model of the anatomy of the patient and virtually the surgeon will be able to place the implants to see where he's going to put it. So that when the day after it will be in the OR when will be will open the passion, there will be no surprise. And and also the the robot will help to navigate let's say the the implant surgery making sure that it's placed perfectly in line with the planning and in line with the with the certain expectation. So that's really a part of the big system. And the outcome is fascinating because, you know, there is no bad day for a robot, You know, I mean, it just plays perfectly the way you want it at a place you want it. And he's so for the surgeon, he's a game changer. I remember when surgeon entertained me. You know, it's like having an Angel on my shoulder, basically. I cannot make mistake with a robot. And you know, it's a very stressful job when you're in the URL. And so it's really making a big difference and without disclosing any confidential data, can you give a range about number of robotic procedure that are taking place across Europe in 2023. So I mean it's difficult to look at the data this way, but what I can say is that we have just communicated that we have treated more than 1,000,000 patterns with our robots since the product was launched, which I think is amazing because it's showing that basically we have now the history and we have the data in the safety and the efficacy of the technology. So yeah, it's a lot of surgery. I can tell you it's a lot of surgery and it's no more, let's say, what I will consider as let's say a completely new innovation. Basically we are doing that since nearly a decade but the difference is the surgeon are not asking the why, they are more asking the when are they going to move with this technology. So that's the big we have the big changes good. And if you are going back to your marketing time a few years ago and now you are leading a pen European organization with a lot of different teams and functions or what's the your marketing time has been shaping your leadership style today as the European leader for striker. So in fact I studied the biomedical engineering. So my let's say my training is more let's say technical and basically applied physics. But I didn't see myself working in the lab. So I became my first, I was a sales Rep, so for a few years and before a small French company in the cardiology and then a few years after I joined Metronic as a marketing. So probably these two experience we are really fundamental for my development or let's say the development of my mindset. And there are a few things I've learned. And 1, when you start to be a sales Rep, you understand a few things. Number one, everything starts with an order. If you don't have an order, nothing happens. That's a good summary. So I think that's sometimes you forget the customer and you forget that without an order there is no campaign. So everything starts with another. You need to understand the field dynamics, you need to understand the customer behaviors and needs. You need to listen and understand different point of view, even if sometimes they are very far from your way of thinking. And I have a funny story I can share. So I started to sell this cardiology solution to private cardiologists. I remember this in this very small town of Moulin in the middle of France. And there was a software that basically the cardiologists or more let's say normally the secretary will install or the assistant on the PC on the Mac at the time. But you know, it was still the early days of, let's say, the having a PC in every, let's say, offices. And I remember this person telling me, oh, I have this product, but I can't connect it, I can't extract the data. What should I do? And I was on the phone in my car the way it was in the past. And probably still, you know, when you're set up in your car and I was explaining to this lady, you know what you need to do. You need to click on this icon and use your mouse and go on this icon and and this and that, trying to explain the past, you know, how to basically use the product. And after 15 minutes, the person asked me, but sorry, what is a mouse? Then I realized that there was a huge disconnect between my assumption of the customer needs and understanding and the reality. So back to this. Listening I think was very, very key. Then on marketing, when I joined marketing, then I understood what was the perfect recipe. And for me, the perfect recipe of the business is pretty simple. In fact, it's a good strategy and a good execution and we need both. We have the perfect strategy, but if you have a poor execution or vice versa, it will never work and the strategy should be as good as it's actionable. If you have the best strategy but you can't use it or it's too complex or nobody will understand it, you will not achieve anything. And you know, from experience, I will always go with a good strategy but a perfect execution because I think the opposite is much more complex. So that's probably a few things I've learned in my first, let's say, four or five years being a sales Rep and the marketing. So Matthew, you have had a very rich career where you started as a sales Rep and then moved to different levels of leadership including managing individual contributors and then managing managers. So could you share some insights on how to? Successfully move from managing individual contributors to managing managers and what strategy that you've used to ensure the success of your team. So I kind of share your view. I mean this is really, really difficult you know and that's probably I mean every change in carrier is requiring some efforts but this one this step is really difficult and unfortunately it's kind of a make or break. You know I've seen some some people basically ending their their their that's the progress on this step. So a few things that that I think we need to keep in mind when when we are moving from let's say individual contributor to to magic managers. The first thing is we to understand what is this new role about you know and and talking with the with the with your leader to understand what success looks like in his eye. At the end of the day is your customer or she's your customer. So you need to understand what success looks like. I think it's very important to understand that when you are managing manager you need to accept that you will not control everything. You will have to rely on people manager and your performance basically will be the sum of the leader's performance of your team. That's that's really, really difficult for me. You know the analogy I like to use, you know, when I think about the difference, I really like this idea of you are running a restaurant, you are adding your restaurant, you know, you know everybody, you know the waiter, you know the chef preparing the food, you know the person who is preparing the table. You taste, you know the food from time to time, you know everything and then suddenly you say no, no, you need to manage 5 restaurant and when you have to match 5 restaurants, it's impossible that you can go to this level of details. You know you don't have the time to technically to go to all the details. You will spend less time in the room, in the restaurant. So you would have to define the priorities, you would have to define some KPIs to follow, you would have to coach the leader of the restaurant. And that's very difficult because one of the difficulty of moving between these two jobs is that if you are promoted, you know, between, let's say, being a manager to being a people manager is because you did a great job. And technically we're going to ask you to stop doing what you like to change completely. And for some people, they don't understand that because they're like, no, but I love to do that, I want to call you to do that. But if you match 5 restaurants the same way you were managing one, it will never work. So it requires some new skills like 1. You will have to focus on hiring top talent. You know you need to find the top talent, make sure they have the right trends, make sure that their strengths are different to your strengths because it needs to be complementary. As I mentioned, I think it's very important that you understand what are the big rocks or the top priorities you know to make the restaurant successful and define the KPIs. And then you know when you manage manager, it will be the same when you manage people. It's all about communicating, active listening and coaching the people. Probably something that is also pretty new is not easy, is about being conscious of your shadow as a leader because you are, again, you are not as close as you were I know from the field or you know in this case from probably the let's say the service area. So I think that's something you need to be conscious. How can I lead by influence as I'm less in directly, let's say with the individual contributor so? You know, I think that that's really difficult. Probably the last thing I would like to say on this topic which I think it's a very complex topic. You know, I remember very well and it was during the metronic time in fact Greg, you know changing job and moving to this to this level and one of my HR leader told me you know mature. You need to be kind with people and tough on objective or performance, not the other way around. And what we see sometime is, you know, people that they are not very good in defining priorities, defining objective very clearly. So it's a little bit vague and then they'll turn to be very pushy on the people, on the managers that they have to coach and that's just a disaster. I think in this kind of position you need to put yourself in more in the pool mode than in the push mode. So you put in place or everything it takes to make it successful and being a mentor of the team. So a lot of good insights and applicable insights also. And we've all been going through this journey and it's about like you mentioned, being self aware, being open, being intentional also And absolutely I would like to reflect again a little bit on your marketing experience and node and you're leading a wide organization. What's your expectation on your marketing organization? And of course it's not directed to your marketing leader and the team, but really what's your expectation when you need a broad organization specifically for your marketers. So you know I think the challenges and again I'm lucky enough to kind of you know I have navigated between sales job and marketing job, you know that's part of my career. So I've seen let's say the two side of the, let's say the story. And I think marketing is a very complex job and the reason why it's complex is because it's always a balance between the short term objective and the long term objective and you have a very important role to play in both. So my first expectation is the marketing is responsible for the long term vision. So being able to define the long term vision but also define it in a way where everybody can understand and connect it with their job. So that's very important back to this actionable strategy, but marketing obviously is a lot about short term and customer and I like to you know to cut this part into three. You know it's about being able to identify the customer. So who are the customer, who are the target, what do they want. It's about being able to satisfy the customer, Are we producing the right product or the right service? I mean do the customer receive value for their money and as but noticed it's about retaining the customer and I think that's the three key in the short term, let's say tactics, we are marketing as a role to play and for me probably the last element which is key. You know, I always say to my marketing people, you are responsible for the energy, the energy that can ignite engagement of our sales Rep and of our customer. You know, basically you're gonna create this energy for internal and external customer. And that's very, very important this point because if the marketing is that creates engagement, you know, I think we are really missing a huge opportunity. I really like your point about energy. I never heard that as a marketers, I never heard that as an expectation. So that's very interesting to reflect on. So Matthew, as you mentioned, you've been moving between marketing and commercial roles. If you look at it more broadly, have you supported in your different roles moves, carrier moves from marketing to other functions, be it commercial or others and how do you spot marketing talents that have the potential to be successful in such moves? So yes, obviously because it's probably one of the privilege you know when you have this kind of let's say position to to see some talent growing and developing there you know in the organization and you know having the feeling that you are probably responsible for a small part of that. So that's something that I really like to to to do and it's always a big pleasure. So for me a marketing talent is pretty simple. You know, a marketing talent is firstly a talent and so how do you recognize the talent? Number? First one is the aptitude of all the performance. I mean that's pretty simple, You know, you have objective, you see what the performance level looks like. What is more dedicated to assess is probably the attitude and the mindset. We want people who are open, curious, they want to learn the self reflects, you know. And the last point which is very important is the ambition level, because I've seen very talented people but their ambition was limited and in fact they were happy with their job. So for me, every time I need to I want to work on the people development. The starting point is really to make sure that the person they have individual development plan because they need to reflect on what they want to do. Because when the IDP or individual development is done, then we can help the person to identify the gap and put in place what it takes to fill the gap to achieve their long term objective. Because that's why I was able to to help the development of marketing people into some sales leadership, into general management or you know, becoming a Vice President of Marketing. So being even more expert in the marketing side, but it all depends on what they want to do. And that's a difficult, let's say part because when you ask the people you know, can you sit down and switch off your phone and try to reflect for half an hour where you see yourself in five years, That's not easy and you need to really to help them. And the more you know your people, the more you know how they are, the more you can also help them in this exercise. So I think that's also an important part of the work. And Mattia would like to come with the opposite question because here you're discussing about how to export marketing talent in commercial or other part of the organization. But are you scouting or identifying talents somewhere else in your organization and it will be a good move to go on the marketing side, for example, Yeah, yeah, I've seen that a few times. I remember I have two examples in mind from people coming from finance for example, or FPNA that join marketing. And it's a very interesting mix because they add they have these kind of analytical skills and they can really help to understand the market with a different point of view. So, so I've seen that a lot, I've seen I mean an obvious path and that's something we have, we have developed a lot is also sales representative, you know sales representative being interested into marketing, I would like to do some marketing. So moving more into the strategic side. So that's something that will that I've seen regularly. So in fact I would say if people they have the motivation and they have the appetite for this topic, I think it's a pretty open let's say field and we can really export you know talent into marketing to continue about what we are just discussing right now. What are some of the key skills and qualities you look for when you're building and managing cross functional teams in the global organization? Thanks Greg. I mean, I'm not sure that there are some, let's say some secrets about, you know what is the best profile, but big organization nowadays they are global and the vast majority of the agents, they are working on the matrix matrix model and it's not easy. I mean there are some set of skills that are extremely important. You know, when you are working in the metrics organization, probably leading by influence is a very important one because the majority of the people in your group, you are working in some kind of a project mode. There is no hierarchy between you and the rest of the team. Being able to understand the context and being able to do some zoom in, zoom out, I think it's very, very important. So zooming out to understand what is the big picture, but being able to go down to the details, zooming in and understanding other points of view. I think the international experience is important in some ways or form. You know, something I really like is to ask you know people from different country to define for me what do I mean when I say perhaps or always you know if I'm always late, it means 5% of the time or 80% of the time. And as you know if you are in or if you're in Brussels, you have a different answer. So you know all these difference on culture, I think you really make it helps when you're aware of that. I mentioned the project management skills and probably passions. I think it's very, very important because again you are part of a really big group. You need to play your part and sometimes you don't control the outcome. So being very, very focused on your part and contributing, but don't be too impassioned because it can be frustrating. So Matthew, we discussed at the beginning that we are in a fast changing environment. We need to adapt continuously to external factors that may come to us. So how In your team you also mentioned the importance of having a strong individual development plan. So looking at your organization and your teams now, how do you ensure that you foster a culture of continuous learning and professional development for your teams? So first I would agree with you, I mean the world is changing fast. I think I have the impression even faster post COVID, we talk a lot about the Vuka world. You know it's unstable. You know it's we need to be more agile. And my feeling is that if we don't move on and if we don't progress, in fact we go backward, you know, So I don't think we have, we have, we have, I think we need, we need to sharpen the soul constantly and back to what I said, let's say earlier, the first thing or the first prerequisite, everybody in my team is supposed to have an individual development plan. So that's a prerequisite and what sometimes what people don't understand, you know, like although an IDP is because if you want to make a long carry and no, that's not what an IDP is about. You know if you just want, if you're a sales Rep and you want to be a master, you know in setting you will need some development, so you need an individual development plan. So 1, making sure that people understand that it's a priority, that they spend some time with their leader to work on the individual development plan. And then when it's done, making sure that we give them opportunity to develop the skills. And there are several, let's say, a way to do it. They can learn on the job, you know, they can participate to new projects. You know, sometimes we have opportunity to move people between division, you know, certain projects giving them a different point of view. Obviously in certain company you have employees, resource groups are very are running lots of interesting project and they are always looking for volunteers. So that's also a good way to develop your skills. But being part of this erg training is always an option, even if you know that's not the only option. And probably the last one I would like to say is that as a leader there is a pretty easy way. Just delegate, you know, delegate. There are lots of things you can delegate. Delegate, give space to your people to develop their skills. And when you do something, for example, there isn't the next management meeting why you will be the one, let's say developing the agenda. Ask a few person you know to develop the agenda to try to understand what would be the most important topic, to talk with other people of the team, to work on some innovative way. So the more you delegate, the more you give opportunity to people, let's say to develop some new skills. Thanks Matthew for all this very practical advice and tips that you shared with us. And now I suggest we move to the last part of our podcast, which is getting behind the scenes to know you a bit better from a personal standpoint. And I'm going to start with some one of our classical questions, but I think it's extremely relevant for you based on what we discussed at the beginning of the recording. Where you explain a bit about your life setup and the fact that you are commuting quite a lot. So how do you balance your personal and professional lives? I think. I think it's difficult. You know, and you know, I have lots of respect for people who are with the right level of discipline to have a good work life balance. I mean, my view is a little bit different in my philosophy. It's not a work life balance, just a life balance. And in in my life, I mean work has always been on the very important part of it. So few things that I try to do and I think you need a bit of discipline if you want to make it work. Number one, I try to continue to exercise a bit. You know, as Greg mentioned, awkwardly we are not 20 years old. You know, we met 15 years ago. So we need to stay in, stay in good shape. So trying to wake up my body, you know, with exercise, trying to do some, some, you know, mindfulness exercise or breathing exercise regularly. I think that's something I'd like to do during the weekend or when I'm off. You know, I spend some time with my family, with my wife and my two sons and I try to disconnect as much you know, as I can. So one rule that we have within the team that no emails during the weekend, 0 e-mail, if you want to do an e-mail, great, but use the delay option to send it on the Monday. Don't create pressure if it's not needed. And probably the last point, which I think is very, very important, we all have up and down, you know, we are not robots. So being transparent about your feeling. So when you have a great day, say it. When you have a bad day, I mean having a best friend at work, you know where you are able to to go to the person and say you know what I have, I don't have a good feeling today and adding a coffee and obviously being able to do the same with your family, I think it makes a huge difference because if you can't express your feeling it's it's really, it's really, it's really difficult to maintain this, this balance. Matthew, is there any book that has impacted you professionally or personally and that you would like to share or recommend to our audience? So I used, yeah. So you know, in the company I work for, we are doing this trend finders exercise where we try to identify what our top strength and my number one strength is learner. So that's something I can't resist to a good book, you know, to a good story, to every opportunity I have to learn. So yes, I have plenty of books I will not recommend You know what I have in my library because it would be too long. But but there are a few books that I think really changed, let's say my perspective on things that probably I would like to share. The first one, it's a funny story. I was working in again in Mars at the time, a long time ago, 20 years ago, and I by the time I was traveling a lot, I would just buy a book randomly in the shop. And I've seen this interesting. I was looking for for a book for for quick fixes and I happen to see this book name the seven habits of ID affected people. I was like, oh, sounds like some quick fix when I'm not able to do my to do this properly. And I read this book and 1, the title is horrible because the book has nothing to do with this. That's a book from Steve Covey. It's a very well known book, probably like, yeah, written 30 years ago, but I think it's excellent book to about personal development and to give you some good tools to reflect and let's say to start your development. And I used to basically ask all the people I was mentoring or coaching to read this book and it was a good, good base to discussion. So that's seven habits is one of them. Now moving to the, let's say to the tips and more the practical things. There is a book I discovered a few years ago that I really like completely different is then How to Be a Productivity Ninja written by Graham Alcote in the UK. And that's that's a book I'm using a lot. In fact I'm using this company a lot also to to help my team. On the front page you have a you have a promise that is pretty appealing. It says worry less, achieve more and love what you do. And I think it's a good, it's a good objective, you know, in this world of well-being. And so just to give you an example, there are some methods in this book making your life easier. The last one that I've implemented, I'm probably gonna dream about it. At least Greg will dream about it. I have zero e-mail in my inbox. I can't believe that. Come on, Matthew, I will send you a picture. I will send you a picture of right after that and I how I did that truth very easy method of this book. So there are lots of things about this and it's really, really nice and probably the last. One my team members, yeah, please. And if you are interested I can even you know recommend some of the trainer. They are doing a pretty nice, you know, 4 hour session about because I can tell you when you open your e-mail and you see zero inbox, you feel you feel much better. And the last one, which is a very small book and you know, I used to afford books all the time, so I can do this. First two I probably I bought already hundreds of them that I gave to lots of people. And the last one is a very, very different book, but I think it's very, very good, very small. Probably it's going to take you an hour to read it. It's named the four agreements from Don Miguel Ruiz, a very small book about personal development and it's about, you know, trying to make you understand better how your brain works. What are all these self limiting belief and how can you gain a personal freedom. So I will not say more than that. I would just highly recommend, you know, I would just recommend these three books. You know, it's summertime, you know, probably when we're gonna listen to the podcast to be after the summer, but there will be some more opportunity, could be the goodness for Christmas gift. But yeah, these three books are very interesting books to read. Thanks nature for sharing and indeed they are sound very appealing. Last question from our side, where would you like to be or where would like to go if you could pick any place in the world. So yeah that's that's that's that's an interesting question. I mean obviously in my in my job I had your party to to travel a lot. But there is one place where I really, I really had a very funny feeling. I would say interesting feeling is probably close to 15 years ago I did a safari South Africa, you know close to the Kruger park and you know being in the middle of the nature early in the morning and seeing you know the animals around you, it's made you know it was really a fantastic experience to kind of reconnect with our roots, you know as humans and so being being back you know in the middle of the nature in the in in South Africa will definitely iron my list. Matthew would like to to thank you for the TMC episode of today. You know, lot of insights, lot of fun also lot of good advice. At least we know what to add on the reading list either for the summer or Christmas break or travel time. It was a real pleasure to welcome you for our listener. If you want to reach to mature, feel free to do it through LinkedIn and mature. With that, we are looking forward to continue to discuss later. Thank you, Mature. Thank you. Thanks again. And that brings us to the end of today's episode. We hope you found this discussion informative and insightful. We encourage you to continue the conversation and stay connected with us on LinkedIn and Instagram at the Marketing Consultation. If you have any questions or topics that you would like us to cover in future episodes, please do not hesitate to reach out. We need your help to grow the marketing consultation community and have more healthcare marketers benefit from the experience and advice of our speakers. Please feel free to share with your network and to give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcast. This is super important to increase our visibility. Thank you again for listening and we look forward to bringing you more insights and ideas from top healthcare leaders in our next episode.